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Post by Cyggy on Mar 5, 2022 1:20:07 GMT
Please rate and discuss this story here.....
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Post by Cyggy on Mar 9, 2022 1:05:32 GMT
I remember the original broadcast of this - and was painfully aware of how unconvincing the Shrivenzale was/seemed even then.
This seems to be a very popular story, but I just don't get it. It has that Graff shouting his head off. Two rogues and perhaps too much humorous patter revolving around them at the expense of the drama. I did feel sorry for Binro. But that was about it.
Seems to be considered a classic - and I can't see why. But probably my loss and I am missing something?
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Post by Cyggy on Jul 8, 2022 9:57:36 GMT
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Post by iank on Aug 25, 2022 23:40:33 GMT
One of the best stories ever, warm, witty and atmospheric with some great sets and direction, and a wonderful guest cast with fabulous dialogue. Bafflingly underappreciated and a great start to probably my all time favourite season.
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Post by Future-Diver on Aug 26, 2022 6:35:21 GMT
One of the best stories ever, warm, witty and atmospheric with some great sets and direction, and a wonderful guest cast with fabulous dialogue. Bafflingly underappreciated and a great start to probably my all time favourite season. Agreed 100% - The Ribos Operation is probably my favourite Robert Holmes story. Tom is hilarious and Mary is enchanting - Ribos is the finest story in the whole Key To Time Season. The Doctor: We're not a dirty gang, are we? Romana: Of course not. 10/10
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Post by GC on Sept 2, 2022 21:10:52 GMT
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Post by profh0011 on Nov 1, 2023 23:32:45 GMT
I think they got the perfect person. Although Romana at times does seem a bit "cool", Mary Tamm's warmth and humor comes through to the point where I really got to like her, right away, in a way I hadn't with any girl on the show since Liz Shaw. The first episode with her remains one of my all-time favorites, because of those initial interactions between her and The Doctor. (Oddly enough, she was the first companion who I got to see their FIRST episode... FIRST. Crazy, but true.)
"NO vacation, K-9." "Hello, Doctor." "That's the new assistant."
(..............long look...............) "My name is Romanadvoratrelundar." "We're SO sorry, is there anything we can do to help?"
...and...
"You know, before I met you, I was actually willing to be impressed." "This isn't going to work!" "Doctor, you're not giving me a CHAHNCE."
(I just love that accent.)
I still remember this one night when I was inspired to pull out this story by itself, and halfway through part one, it hit me... "It's Hermoine Granger-- ALL GROWN UP!"
I love "gothic horror", but 4 solid seasons of nothing but gothic horror was just too damn much for my tastes. (And in fact, this is a problem the show's had ever since the Troughton era-- they'll hit on one thing, and do THAT until they're sick of it, instead of every story being a different genre, like in seasons 1-2.) So Season 16 instantly became a favorite of mine.
I understand Mary Tamm being disappointed by the limitations of her character in the format... but... when I look at what happened in seasons 17-18, there are times, as much as I like Lalla Ward, that I WISH Mary Tamm had stuck around, and we could have seen THAT MUCH character growth with HER doing it. Because Lalla Ward's Romana seemed so much more confident, and at times, "imperial", than the more imperial-looking Tamm had been allowed to be.
When she passed away, it genuinely hurt me more than Caroline John or Lis Sladen, all 3 of whom went within a few months of each other.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 4, 2024 17:19:57 GMT
Much as I respect the opinions above, I'm half way through this story with a bemused WTF vibe... I feel it's a bit dumbed down (just like NuWho) maybe a bit too much. Romana's supposed to be a young timelord with 'attitude' but so far she comes across as very timid once The Doctor's put her in her place. I DON'T want to know that The Doctor didn't do so well in his studies for whatever reason as my feeling was that the Doctor was actually quite well respected and simply got bored rather than in trouble and simply wanted to travel the universe to experience and explore. maybe Tom's persona suited that part of the script, but I'd never see Hartnell's persona accepting it. Just my opinion obviously. Again, I can't remember anything really about these stories (I remember 'Destiny' vividly of course and Lala made a great Romana I reckon), so I'll carry on and watch the extras too
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Post by Future-Diver on Feb 5, 2024 7:08:24 GMT
Much as I respect the opinions above, I'm half way through this story with a bemused WTF vibe... I feel it's a bit dumbed down (just like NuWho) maybe a bit too much. Romana's supposed to be a young timelord with 'attitude' but so far she comes across as very timid once The Doctor's put her in her place. I DON'T want to know that The Doctor didn't do so well in his studies for whatever reason as my feeling was that the Doctor was actually quite well respected and simply got bored rather than in trouble and simply wanted to travel the universe to experience and explore. maybe Tom's persona suited that part of the script, but I'd never see Hartnell's persona accepting it. Just my opinion obviously. Again, I can't remember anything really about these stories (I remember 'Destiny' vividly of course and Lala made a great Romana I reckon), so I'll carry on and watch the extras too Sorry you feel that way dsjr, but personally I've always loved The Ribos Operation - I actually like the fact that we learn from Romana that the Doctor only scraped through with fifty one percent at his second attempt at graduating from the Academy on Gallifrey. I imagine he was too rebellious and unconventional to fit into the world of formal education and although fiercely intelligent, he was perhaps too free-spirited and easily distracted by other, more interesting stuff than book learning. This is perfectly in keeping with the Fourth Doctor's attitude but also with the Doctor's general stance of defiance and non-conformity. It also ties in with this exchange from The Deadly Assassin:Borusa: As I believe I told you long ago, Doctor, you will never amount to anything in the galaxy while you retain your propensity for vulgar facetiousness. Doctor: Yes, sir. You said that many times, sir. May I go, sir? Borusa was, I take it, one of the Doctor's old teachers/lecturers at the Academy. If the Doctor was a more straightforward (American-style) conventional hero-type, I'm sure we'd learn he was the perfect student at the Academy - getting top grades/marks, beating the teachers at their own game, graduating with a triple first before everybody else, and achieving great academic success and renown. But not this Doctor. Anyway, it was just a humourous line from Robert Holmes, probably not meant to give us any great insight into the Doctor's education.
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Post by profh0011 on Feb 5, 2024 16:38:30 GMT
I DON'T want to know that The Doctor didn't do so well in his studies for whatever reason as my feeling was that the Doctor was actually quite well respected and simply got bored rather than in trouble and simply wanted to travel the universe to experience and explore. maybe Tom's persona suited that part of the script, but I'd never see Hartnell's persona accepting it. Just my opinion obviously. This is the crazy thing. To MANY people, Tom Baker IS the Doctor. Not "A" Doctor, "THE" Doctor, because he was the FIRST one they ever saw, and, he lasted 7 seasons on the show. So Baker & all his quirks and goofiness and APPARENT on-screen incompetence IS the way the Doctor really is.
But I don't think so.
I came in with Peter Cushing, then Jon Pertwee, and while I liked Tom Baker immediately, when his character would be acting SO incompetently onscreen, too convincingly, that you thought he was really like that, it reminded me too much of Columbo in the late 70s when some writers seemed to forget the guy was really BRILLIANT under a facade (just-- like-- Patrick Troughton's Doctor).
Now, when you get to seeing the earliest William Hartnell stories, where you know NOTHING about him (that is, if you hadn't been watching all the later ones already), and he's talking about having been "a pioneer among his own people", and then you watch Sylvester McCoy making mysterious references to things in his long-ago past (no doubt confusing and intriguing Ace as he does), you have to wonder, WHAT'S going on here? Either the writing is inconsistent (which it could be) or SOMEBODY'S LYING. I'd say it's Baker.
When Romana says, "Well, it's better than squeezing by at fifty per cent on the 2nd try..." and he jumps in with "THAT'S CLASSIFIED INFORMATION!", I have to wonder. Was he offended that she'd stumbled on some truth he didn't want known... or was she MAKING A JOKE as his expense, and he reacted AS IF IT WAS the truth?
That's the cool-- and at times, baffling-- thing about some Robert Holmes scripts. He never minds shaking up what you think you know, but he often does it in a way that poses more questions than it answers.
I can accept the idea of The Doctor being SO unconventional that he was brilliant, but his teachers didn't realize it. On the other hand, IF The Doctor HAD been a "pioneer" of his society, IF he was involved in the dangerous feat of engineering that turned his people into IMMORTAL TIME LORDS in the first place... how can we reconcile that with his having been viewed as a halfwit while "at school"? Was that school (that both he AND his brother attended) BEFORE or AFTER what Omega & Rassilon did with that core of a black hole? Did he somehow hide who he was and attend school just to look "normal" among his people? So many questions... and often, it's best not to know the answers.
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Post by profh0011 on Feb 5, 2024 16:41:42 GMT
By the way, I just re-read my earlier post, and realized, I'd seen Jo Grant's 1st episode FIRST. It just took me a bit to get to like her.
Romana, I liked IMMEDIATELY, despite her alleged "frostiness". Yes, Mary Tamm WAS a very nice lady under that. It came through.
What happened with Lalla Ward on the show only proves that Tamm COULD have gotten better writing. Unless, of course, Ward (like Baker, like Patrick Macnee and HIS partners on THE AVENGERS), were re-writing the dialogue at the rehearsal stage. Perhaps Tamm didn't have enough confidence to do that.
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Post by profh0011 on Feb 5, 2024 16:46:12 GMT
"The concept itself was quite easy to get together but I knew I needed stories which still could be self-sufficient in their own right. I found it a refreshing challenge, but I knew I didn’t want to repeat it the year after."
The concept of a season-long story-arc was years ahead of its time. I TOTALLY agree that it shouldn't be "repeated". The problem with TOO MANY recent series is they're ALL season-long story-arcs, and, WORSE, they have CLIFFHANGERS between those season-long story-arcs, so there's NO BREAKS anywhere!
I got REALLY, REALLY fed up with that on THE FLASH. I've got the first 4 seasons sitting here on DVD, and by the end of the 4th season, I just could not get myself up to re-watching season 4 and then moving on to season 5. I suppose buying TV shows, it's easier to just STOP, than back in the 80s & 90s when I was TAPING shows off the air.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 5, 2024 17:27:25 GMT
OK fellas, I do get where you're coming from and sincere thanks for diving in and giving your different takes on this story and characterisation. At present, I'm still convinced that William Hartnell was the FIRST Doctor, but it's almost as if there was 'The Other' maybe before him (not sure if Lungbarrow is regarded at all in these circles, but it kind of explains it a bit I think - I wonder what a 'Genetic Loom' looks like? See, I didn't mind the darker McCoy stories and hints... Maybe The Doctor and Borusa went back many hundreds of years and regenerations to the earliest times, I don't know. We could speculate for ages about this (I mean, I got the impression that the Doctor seemed to know Rassilon well in The Five Doctors) and really, it's our imaginations aiding the story backgrounds I suppose. I'd never want the Doctor to be perfect and yeah, a restless and impatient rebel does seem about right, but Hartnell's portrayal does seem a touch too 'sensible' for that, give or take the odd naughty twinkle in his eye, so there ya go Whatever, I'm enjoying my journey back through the classic series and dread eventually coming to *after* the TV movie. I had an argument with my son yesterday as 'Dalek' is the only story I really properly remember from NuWho and he thinks other stories are worthy as well It'll still be a while, but we'll see and time will tell - it always does.... P.S. Oh yeah, Binro WAS right
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Post by profh0011 on Feb 6, 2024 4:53:38 GMT
I've read ABOUT "Lungbarrow", and am glad whatever it was was never done on TV. It's too complicated for its own good, screams "fanboy amateur" stuff to me. I prefer simple to over-complicated.
As an aside, the whole business of Sylvester in SILVER NEMESIS I interpret this way: He CONNED Lady Peinforte into believeing there was some dark, deep, secret about himself he didn't want anyone knowing... so he could manipulate her into doing the exact stupid thing she did, which on realizing it, drove her more insane than she already was. He pulled her leg.
I saw the tv-movie twice... and liked it better the 1st time. Which is not a good sign. I haven't been able to bring myself to see it again, and frankly, I'd have preferred if the 2005 revival had starred an older McCoy, who could have pulled it off.
I JUST had a wild idea that never crossed my mind before. Supposing the Doctor ISN'T much, much, much older than his contemporaries? He might have gone back in time and MET Rassilon & Omega when they were doing their thing, and... "helped out". Like Riker did in STAR TREK FIRST CONTACT. Heh heh heh... I'm laughing so hard now, and that's usually a good sign that I'm onto something.
Hey, if ST:TNG is gonna blatently STEAL from WHO, why not go the other way as well?
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Post by Future-Diver on Feb 6, 2024 6:55:22 GMT
I've read ABOUT "Lungbarrow", and am glad whatever it was was never done on TV. It's too complicated for its own good, screams "fanboy amateur" stuff to me. I prefer simple to over-complicated.
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. Lungbarrow was a very well written, enjoyable book - and reminded me a bit of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast series (well, sort of). I don't think it would have translated well to the small screen and I'm not entirely sure I want to know the Doctor's backstory, but if pushed, I'd sooner learn it from a cleverly written novel like Lungbarrow, rather than from a tossed-off bit of TV nonsense like The Timeless Children . Copies go for nearly £400.00 on Ebay.
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