|
Post by Cyggy on Jul 19, 2022 10:37:38 GMT
It seems to be a common(?) belief amongst fans that some very profound "mistakes" were made during the running of the show in the 1980's? But - if so - what were those mistakes? Can every single "mistake" be laid at the feet of JN-T, with the buck really stopping with him - as he often stated? Were the 1960's and 1970's really better? What, in your opinion, went wrong?
Or do you feel that the criticism is unjust and that the 1980's were actually unfairly judged - even now?
|
|
|
Post by heccy on Jul 19, 2022 11:16:38 GMT
I think the problem with all the decades of classic Who is the BBC didn't want to spend much money on it...
If Tom Baker had quit earlier and gone out on a high, rather than let the show fall into the smug, self mockery of his Williams produced era, and got another, good character actor replacing him, and the BBC actually giving it a proper budget, it might have fought on, rather than have a long, lingering death through the 1980's.
But the BBC wanted to make Eastenders...
Nothing against Peter Davison, Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy... Davison's first season saw a rise in viewing figures and I love a lot of the WHO produced with those Doctors and Companions..
But the Bastard British C*ntpony loathed the show and wanted it to end.
|
|
|
Post by sadako on Jul 19, 2022 12:07:37 GMT
Too many to name.
Doctor Who was going great up until 1977. Then during the Williams era (1977-80) it lost something of its visceral, compelling quality. Mostly due to circumstances beyond the makers' control (inflation, dictates from above because of Mary Whitehouse).
Nonetheless it did have a good format and set-up. Stories like City of Death and State of Decay proved that you could do a lot of good with the Fourth Doctor and Romana dynamic.
But JNT decided to get rid of that and push a more unsustainable companion dynamic with frankly more obnoxious characters like Adric and Tegan. From JNT's first season there was more of a leaning toward fanservice and it already started to get out of control. The Master had been a fun villain in the 1970's but not so fun after Logopolis, but nonetheless JNT insisted on having the character not go away. Which unfortunately seemed to require the new Doctor to be a doormat to his ever returning enemy (it also meant that the emotional repercussions for Nyssa were dead on arrival).
People liked Doctor Who for its standalone adventures and neat resolutions, and the Doctor being the hero they could champion. But Doctor Who no longer was that. It was neverending joyless fanservice and comebacks with a Doctor who was frankly clueless and unfit for purpose a lot of the time (Warriors of the Deep really was the unforgivable nadir of this), and sadly the behind the scenes reveals JNT was so paranoid about having any past writers back to undermine his authority that anyone who did have a clue wasn't allowed back. This is why I struggle with the 'he did his best' defence, when clearly he was the blocking element to writers who knew best.
Eric Saward fought their corner of course, but it is pause to wonder if we could've and should've had plenty more Caves of Androzanis and State of Decays under a less restrictive producer.
But Twin Dilemma, what the hell were they thinking? What a worst way to make an impression with a new Doctor.
Season 22, ironically seemed like a return to a smooth, workable format again with a more intriguing, pro-active Doctor, and it does feel like this JNT house style is working, but a lot of the scenes of the Sixth Doctor berating Peri leave a really nasty aftertaste (then again so do a lot of the Eccleston stories where he treats Mickey and Adam likewise). It does nonetheless feel like by Revelation of the Daleks the show was on the right track, but then the era has had false dawns like it before (Enlightenment, Caves of Androzani).
It is only really from Trial onwards that I think any fan can say the problems were down to BBC interference, everything up until then was self-inflicted. Nonetheless, to follow up complaints about the show's violence with a story like Mindwarp where Peri is killed because of the Doctor's evil turn, feels like a wilful act of show suicide, and it amazes me the series lasted another three years.
Season 24 is irredeemable. Remembrance of the Daleks does at last feel like the show is belatedly in tune with the Doctor Who the 1980's public wanted to champion, but to me it's lightning in a bottle. The McCoy era is very hit and miss. I guess it did feel it was on the right path but I'm not totally convinced it was the great return to form.
Overall, sadly a lot of the era is a write-off to me.
|
|
|
Post by Cyggy on Jul 19, 2022 14:17:30 GMT
It intrigues me that neither Tom, nor Peter, Colin or Sylv liked wearing question marks and seemingly nobody on the crew from June Hudson onward liked the idea of them (and they have all moaned about them on commentaries and on documentaries since) yet JN-T insisted, of course, on the question mark motif in one form or another throughout his entire tenure.
It makes me wonder if anyone ever openly ventured criticism of them at any point - or just grumbled about them behind his back?
Would he have respected someone going toe to toe with him and saying: "About the question marks, John!" - or would he have reacted badly and ultimately fired them? I suspect he wasn't approachable enough for this kind of honest discussion about any of his decisions?
|
|
|
Post by sadako on Jul 19, 2022 15:42:38 GMT
Ironically the question marks came in just as any actual mystery and intrigue about the character was being completely removed. Hinchcliffe and Williams had always wanted to develop the character beyond trite boy scout morality, and yet with Davison the character was regressed completely to that.
The question marks became a poor substitute for the fact this was no longer a character who kept us guessing.
There's a great moment in The Ribos Operation where Romana misdiagnoses the Doctor with an 'overcompensation complex', and the Doctor's response tells Romana (and us) that she still doesn't fully get him and there's a lot more to guess at about who he is and what makes him tick. But by 1983 he'd become a much more obvious character under the obvious dictation of the worst writing.
|
|
|
Post by Bowties on Aug 4, 2023 1:33:46 GMT
Yeah, I thought that the question marks were a little naff. Especially with Sylvester McCoy’s Doctor, but looking back they seem to add a certain charm to the era.
Especially Colin Baker’s outfit. It screams 80s to me.
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Aug 24, 2024 18:56:58 GMT
Just read this thread.
I think Thomas is being more fair than I've read from him before!
Mary Tamm's Romana and her interactions with The Doctor made her a real favorite of mine from the moment she arrived.
"You know, before we met, I was willing to be impressed."
Is that not one of the FUNNIEST lines ever thrown in The Doctor's face?
Reading more about her lately, I WISH she had been more interested in the job, MORE interested in re-writing her lines at the rehearsal stage (as such people as Ian Hendry, Patrick Macnee, Honor Blackman, Diana Rigg, Douglas Wilmer, Tom Baker and Lis Sladen have all reportedly been), and had wanted to stick around and MAKE a bigger impact. But, sadly, it's down to HER that she didn't. Lalla Ward DID... so, good for Mary Tamm for suggesting her as her replacement!
A producer who deliberately breaks up a winning formula, and actively drives away GOOD, EXPERIENCED writers... has got serious problems, and seemed to attract problems like those 2 IDIOTS at the top of the BBC ladder who wanted the show gone so bad.
Thank goodness for Andrew Cartmel, who DID have ideas, AND drive, but, sadly, not enough experience. What I saw was were the best stories the show had seen since the Williams era, BUT, too many flaws in the execution of them. I am still sometimes shocked that Sylvester McCoy actually became my FAVORITE Doctor, but it was IN SPITE of most of what was going on around him.
|
|